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	<title>Comments on: Schilling to the Hall? Not anytime soon</title>
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		<title>By: bachslunch</title>
		<link>http://www.brushbackpitch.com/2009/03/26/schilling-to-the-hall-not-anytime-soon/#comment-336</link>
		<dc:creator>bachslunch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brushbackpitch.com/?p=188#comment-336</guid>
		<description>Agreed with Tony P.-- this is a perceptive post from Andy.

Looking at similarity scores, Schilling seems at best like a marginal HoF-er and mostly like none at all. Here&#039;s his top 10 most similar, with HoF-ers starred:

Kevin Brown, Bob Welch, Orel Hershiser, Freddie Fitzsimmons, John Smoltz, Milt Pappas, *Don Drysdale, *Dazzy Vance, Jim Perry, *Catfish Hunter.

Of the seven non-HoF-ers here, one occasionally hears HoF talk about Smoltz (though he&#039;s equally marginal) and nothing about the rest. Of the three HoF-ers, all can be viewed as anywhere from marginal to mistake.

Am thinking if Schilling gets voted in the HoF, it will be a triumph of bloody-sock style over statistical substance. Which is to say he might get in anyway, especially if the intellectual equivalents of Corky Simpson and Bruce Jenkins have their way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed with Tony P.&#8211; this is a perceptive post from Andy.</p>
<p>Looking at similarity scores, Schilling seems at best like a marginal HoF-er and mostly like none at all. Here&#8217;s his top 10 most similar, with HoF-ers starred:</p>
<p>Kevin Brown, Bob Welch, Orel Hershiser, Freddie Fitzsimmons, John Smoltz, Milt Pappas, *Don Drysdale, *Dazzy Vance, Jim Perry, *Catfish Hunter.</p>
<p>Of the seven non-HoF-ers here, one occasionally hears HoF talk about Smoltz (though he&#8217;s equally marginal) and nothing about the rest. Of the three HoF-ers, all can be viewed as anywhere from marginal to mistake.</p>
<p>Am thinking if Schilling gets voted in the HoF, it will be a triumph of bloody-sock style over statistical substance. Which is to say he might get in anyway, especially if the intellectual equivalents of Corky Simpson and Bruce Jenkins have their way.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony P</title>
		<link>http://www.brushbackpitch.com/2009/03/26/schilling-to-the-hall-not-anytime-soon/#comment-273</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 10:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brushbackpitch.com/?p=188#comment-273</guid>
		<description>Great post Andy. I was looking at another Pitcher&#039;s stat&#039;s and Schilling came to mind right away. What I&#039;ll say is if Schilling get into the HOF there will be a lot of buzz surrounding other great players with comparable stats.

I think recently Voters have become way to fixated on numbers like 300 wins and 3,000 strikeouts.

What about a guy who at only 21 years old threw a no-hitter against a pretty decent Minnesota Twins team (sorry Andy) :) , won a Cy Young Award and also the MVP of the League? He&#039;s a 6-time All-Star who played in 502 games with a career era of 3.27, 209 wins and 3-time 20 plus win seasons. Finally only Nolan Ryan threw the ball harder back in his time and he&#039;s a proud owner of 3 World Series rings. 

His only downfall compared to Schilling&#039;s career is that his 1-5 playoff pitching record is disappointing. Being a youngster and making 4 appearances against something called a &quot;Big Red Machine&quot; likely didn&#039;t help. But a along with his 143 complete games and 37 career shutouts should count for something in comparing pitchers. 

After age 29 though, he was basically a .500 pitcher. Unfortunately the decline was due to being primarily being a blazing hard thrower, playing with bad teams and a drug addiction problem.

Now I&#039;m not saying Vida Blue (thought I wouldn&#039;t tell you :) ) definetly should be in the HOF but if Schilling gets in you have to ask the question why not Blue? I would hope the Writers would understand his battles with cocaine addiction and current alcohol problems are just real life difficulties he&#039;s been unable to stay clear of. IMO voters need to separate his addiction from his baseball accomplishments as much as possible. I&#039;m not sure what the voters stance is on personal problems?

There are plenty of players i.e. Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle that suffered from over indulgences and have stated that it affected their play but still were HOFers. I would hope their isn&#039;t a double standard of some sort. 

Others pretty good players with simliar careers will expect too be given strong HOF consideration (if possible,can&#039;t remember rules) like: Luis Tiant, Bob Welch, Orel Hersheiser, Kevin Brown and Mickey Lolich, 

In fact I could make a strong argument for Schilling&#039;s HOF induction based on Don Drysdale and Catfish Hunter being in the HOF.

All I really know is that Bert Blyleven should be in and Jack Morris had the stuff of a big-time winner and is HOFer no matter what the idiots say. To hell with his era!  

Off topic, does anyone out there agree with me that Yankee Pitcher Ron &quot;Louisiana Lightning&quot; Guidry should be in the HOF? I think quality should count. A career average of 17-9 a season is awesome. I don&#039;t know why you have to have a ton of wins and play 20 years to be a HOFer. I think if a guy performs at a high level for 10 years in any sport that should be enough. 

Along the quality line I&#039;d sure like to know why the &quot;We are Family&quot; 3rd baseman Bill &quot;Mad Dog&quot; Madlock isn&#039;t in the HOF. He was a 3-time All-Star (AS MVP) who played 15 years with over 2,000 hits, a lifetime .305 hitter and 4-time Batting Champion. 

The same with another Pirate Al Oliver. They didn&#039;t call the 70&#039;s Pirates &quot;The Lumber Company&quot; (also Willie Stargell and Dave Parker) for nothing.  Al Oliver played 18 seasons with 2,743 hits, a 7-time All-Star, a .303 lifetime batting average, rarely struck, WS winner in 1971, won a batting title and was a 3-time Silver Slugger Award Winner. No one can convince me he&#039;s not a HOFer because of 257 hits short of 3,000 or his 219 homers (13 yrs with 10 plus homers) are sexy enough. The man could hit and play! 

Same for another Pirates in Dave Parker. He played 19 years with 2,712 hits, 339 home runs, and a smooth .290 lifetime batting avg. He started for two different World Series winners,was a 7-time All-Star, 3-time Silver Slugger Award winner, 1978 League MVP,1979 AS MVP and two-time batting champion. Are you kidding me!! and know I&#039;m not a Pirates fan but I remember lots of their great players throughout the 70&#039;s. They had great battles with the Reds. So many runs scored!!

It&#039;s obvious the writers can&#039;t get the voting right. I think they need a special panel of older writers only, like in football and some experts to consult with. I doubt the younger people can have much appreciation for the older players. Nothing in my mind replaces growing up watching the players. They must be too hung up in numbers. It shouldn&#039;t of been that hard to figure out Jim Rice was one of the best sluggers of his day or that Bert Blyleven had a HOF curveball to match or better Jim Palmer. He just happened to play for a worse team. Plus they pitched deeper into the games so they took more losses. Another example of a great Pitcher with many losses is Jim Kaat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post Andy. I was looking at another Pitcher&#8217;s stat&#8217;s and Schilling came to mind right away. What I&#8217;ll say is if Schilling get into the HOF there will be a lot of buzz surrounding other great players with comparable stats.</p>
<p>I think recently Voters have become way to fixated on numbers like 300 wins and 3,000 strikeouts.</p>
<p>What about a guy who at only 21 years old threw a no-hitter against a pretty decent Minnesota Twins team (sorry Andy) <img src='http://www.brushbackpitch.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  , won a Cy Young Award and also the MVP of the League? He&#8217;s a 6-time All-Star who played in 502 games with a career era of 3.27, 209 wins and 3-time 20 plus win seasons. Finally only Nolan Ryan threw the ball harder back in his time and he&#8217;s a proud owner of 3 World Series rings. </p>
<p>His only downfall compared to Schilling&#8217;s career is that his 1-5 playoff pitching record is disappointing. Being a youngster and making 4 appearances against something called a &#8220;Big Red Machine&#8221; likely didn&#8217;t help. But a along with his 143 complete games and 37 career shutouts should count for something in comparing pitchers. </p>
<p>After age 29 though, he was basically a .500 pitcher. Unfortunately the decline was due to being primarily being a blazing hard thrower, playing with bad teams and a drug addiction problem.</p>
<p>Now I&#8217;m not saying Vida Blue (thought I wouldn&#8217;t tell you <img src='http://www.brushbackpitch.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  ) definetly should be in the HOF but if Schilling gets in you have to ask the question why not Blue? I would hope the Writers would understand his battles with cocaine addiction and current alcohol problems are just real life difficulties he&#8217;s been unable to stay clear of. IMO voters need to separate his addiction from his baseball accomplishments as much as possible. I&#8217;m not sure what the voters stance is on personal problems?</p>
<p>There are plenty of players i.e. Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle that suffered from over indulgences and have stated that it affected their play but still were HOFers. I would hope their isn&#8217;t a double standard of some sort. </p>
<p>Others pretty good players with simliar careers will expect too be given strong HOF consideration (if possible,can&#8217;t remember rules) like: Luis Tiant, Bob Welch, Orel Hersheiser, Kevin Brown and Mickey Lolich, </p>
<p>In fact I could make a strong argument for Schilling&#8217;s HOF induction based on Don Drysdale and Catfish Hunter being in the HOF.</p>
<p>All I really know is that Bert Blyleven should be in and Jack Morris had the stuff of a big-time winner and is HOFer no matter what the idiots say. To hell with his era!  </p>
<p>Off topic, does anyone out there agree with me that Yankee Pitcher Ron &#8220;Louisiana Lightning&#8221; Guidry should be in the HOF? I think quality should count. A career average of 17-9 a season is awesome. I don&#8217;t know why you have to have a ton of wins and play 20 years to be a HOFer. I think if a guy performs at a high level for 10 years in any sport that should be enough. </p>
<p>Along the quality line I&#8217;d sure like to know why the &#8220;We are Family&#8221; 3rd baseman Bill &#8220;Mad Dog&#8221; Madlock isn&#8217;t in the HOF. He was a 3-time All-Star (AS MVP) who played 15 years with over 2,000 hits, a lifetime .305 hitter and 4-time Batting Champion. </p>
<p>The same with another Pirate Al Oliver. They didn&#8217;t call the 70&#8242;s Pirates &#8220;The Lumber Company&#8221; (also Willie Stargell and Dave Parker) for nothing.  Al Oliver played 18 seasons with 2,743 hits, a 7-time All-Star, a .303 lifetime batting average, rarely struck, WS winner in 1971, won a batting title and was a 3-time Silver Slugger Award Winner. No one can convince me he&#8217;s not a HOFer because of 257 hits short of 3,000 or his 219 homers (13 yrs with 10 plus homers) are sexy enough. The man could hit and play! </p>
<p>Same for another Pirates in Dave Parker. He played 19 years with 2,712 hits, 339 home runs, and a smooth .290 lifetime batting avg. He started for two different World Series winners,was a 7-time All-Star, 3-time Silver Slugger Award winner, 1978 League MVP,1979 AS MVP and two-time batting champion. Are you kidding me!! and know I&#8217;m not a Pirates fan but I remember lots of their great players throughout the 70&#8242;s. They had great battles with the Reds. So many runs scored!!</p>
<p>It&#8217;s obvious the writers can&#8217;t get the voting right. I think they need a special panel of older writers only, like in football and some experts to consult with. I doubt the younger people can have much appreciation for the older players. Nothing in my mind replaces growing up watching the players. They must be too hung up in numbers. It shouldn&#8217;t of been that hard to figure out Jim Rice was one of the best sluggers of his day or that Bert Blyleven had a HOF curveball to match or better Jim Palmer. He just happened to play for a worse team. Plus they pitched deeper into the games so they took more losses. Another example of a great Pitcher with many losses is Jim Kaat.</p>
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		<title>By: The other side: Of course Schilling gets in &#124; BrushBackPitch.com</title>
		<link>http://www.brushbackpitch.com/2009/03/26/schilling-to-the-hall-not-anytime-soon/#comment-147</link>
		<dc:creator>The other side: Of course Schilling gets in &#124; BrushBackPitch.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:55:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brushbackpitch.com/?p=188#comment-147</guid>
		<description>[...] I have to take real exception to Andy’s assertion that he’s not a Hall Of Famer. It seems that the arguments against him are this – 216 wins, no Cy Young awards, and his numbers [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I have to take real exception to Andy’s assertion that he’s not a Hall Of Famer. It seems that the arguments against him are this – 216 wins, no Cy Young awards, and his numbers [...]</p>
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